From Pride To Partnership

We sit down with Clayton and Ashley Hurst, marriage pastors at Lakewood Church (Houston, Texas), to trace their path from pride and pain to a practical, hope-filled marriage built on humility, daily devotions, and community. Their story offers clear plays you can run today to rebuild trust, safety, and unity.

• Skipping premarital counseling and the slow slide into hopelessness
• The question that sparked humility and a new start
• Daily non-negotiables of honor, respect, and security
• Vulnerability, open devices, and safe conversations
• Reading the Bible together and renewing the mind
• Planning before conflict and fighting as a team
• Processing grief, seeking counseling, and showing grace
• Finding mentors, joining groups, and avoiding isolation

Follow Clayton and Ashley @ClaytonAndAshlee, @claytonhhurst, @ashleehurst

Go out and grab Clayton and Ashley's book- Hope for Your Marriage, and also The Marriage Game Plan by yours truly. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey, hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Marriage Game Plan podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

We are so excited for this episode today. We are going to be joined by some of our amazing friends that we love.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

That's right. None other than Clayton and Ashley Hurst, right? They are our friends, marriage pastors of Lakewood Church, big church, influential church, and they just pastor those couples so well. They help lead the small groups, they help do life groups, retreats, and they also lead that Spark Marriage Conference.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

They've been married 29 years and they have three amazing kids, and they are the authors of Hope for Your Marriage.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Welcome, Clayton and Ashley. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

George and Tondra.

Meet Clayton And Ashley

SPEAKER_04 0:43

Man, we've been looking forward to this. And we're so excited not only to be on your podcast, but we're so grateful that you guys are doing this podcast because I think there are so many people, including the earlier days of Clayton and Ashley, especially. We needed a marriage game plan, no doubt.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Absolutely. So honored to be on with you guys. We love you guys.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Well, we feel like you all have so much wisdom to share through your journey and not only your personal journey, but you also pour back into other couples to help bring them along the journey. So thank you for being co-laborers in this field that God has us with couples.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

That's right. So hey, let's jump in. Listen, how did your marriage journey begin, right? And what were the early days like of you starting building your foundation?

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

We called those the dark days.

The Early “Dark Days”

SPEAKER_01 1:34

You know, Clayton and I, we both come from great Christian homes. My parents will celebrate, actually, tomorrow, they will celebrate 54 years of marriage. Wow. Clayton's parents were married 55 before his mom passed away. We grew up in godly homes. We grew up going to church. And so when we got engaged, we thought, well, this will be easy because our parents made it seem easy. We went to one premarital counseling appointment. I was too concerned about the wedding. I did not care about this. I was like, we've got this. We're good. We're great people. Like, this is not a problem. And so we went to one, we had one, and we never went back because we thought we had it. And so we had this beautiful wedding and everything seemed great like the first year. And then slowly but surely over the years, about year five, we found ourselves in a valley of hopelessness because of miscommunication, misunderstanding, and pride.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Wait, so let me back up. Let me back up here. So the marriage pastors of Lakewood opted to stop doing premarital counseling.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Yeah, that that wasn't a wise move.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

The marriage pastors then, but I'm I'm sure you have a very different take on what you tell couples that youth has to be.

SPEAKER_04 2:48

What's interesting is that I think we sat down for that first premarital, and uh it was with my former youth pastor, and I was on staff as the kids' pastor at the time. And I think we went through it, and and when he started talking, we were like, well, yeah, that makes sense. Well, yeah, we understand that. And I think we all three, not just us, all three of us, decided, you know what, I think we're good, you know? And uh what I think her parents and my parents did a great job in is not only working on their marriage, but I don't know if they ever gave us the inside scoop of how much work it took to have a successful marriage. That's where I feel like, you know, they could have done a better job. We could have done a much better job. But I think today, to your point, we are advocates for premarital. We are advocates to getting the tools that you need before you ever jump into marriage. And um, in fact, we have an ongoing premarital course every single week at Lakewood that anybody can jump into. Wow. In fact, my parents went through this same premarital course at year 40. And so we often tell couples, listen, it doesn't matter if you are not married yet, if you've just gotten married or you've been married for years, if you didn't have that foundational level to learn some truths that are in God's word that can help you, because we define marriage as an ongoing educational course that you'll never graduate from until one of you takes your last breath. So we're always learning, we're always growing. So there's always great things that we can learn for this season of our marriage.

unknown 4:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

And I do think a lot of couples don't realize they enter marriage with that disillusionment that we love each other and we're good people, and I'm humble or whatever, you know, they feel like, oh, it's not gonna be hard. And then when that fairy tale or that hopeful ending, you know, comes to an end because life is hard, marriage is hard, the dust does settle, and then it's kind of like you gotta have that game plan to kick in. So we we definitely align in that. Like, please know that marriage takes work and effort. Yeah. So another question that we wanted to talk about was what are some of the challenges that you faced and overcame in your marriage? And how did you face them together as a couple?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Yeah, so I think it starts back at that beginning time. I I would say now, knowing your book, that was our first game plan. So five years into our marriage, we found ourselves in that valley of hopelessness. And, you know, at that point, we lived in East Texas, we were at a small church. Clayton was the kids' pastor, but when you're at a small church, you're not just the kids' pastor, you're also the janitor, you're on the school board. And so he also did marriage counseling, ironically, even though our marriage was not great at all.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Wait, wait. I could tell somebody how to get have a great marriage, I just couldn't do it myself. It was really bad.

The Wake-Up Call: Humility Over Pride

SPEAKER_01 5:41

We were we were sitting on thrones of pride for sure during that time. And um, so anyway, he was trying to help this couple and he was getting frustrated because they weren't listening to him. And he was praying one day, and uh he was just like, Lord, what can I tell them? And do you want to finish this?

SPEAKER_04 5:58

So I hear this, you know, it wasn't audible. It was just deep in my heart. Yeah, it just I just heard this voice say, Are you willing to do whatever it takes to have the marriage you've always hoped and dreamed of? And I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's brilliant. I'm gonna tell that, I'm gonna ask that question to that couple. And so I had my session, I talked to them and I asked them that question. They were like, Well, well, yeah, that's that's why we're here. And so um, so we got finished, and I remember walking out to my car in the parking lot, and that still small voice hit me again as soon as I got in the car. And and the still small voice said, and that question wasn't for them, that question was for you. Are you willing to do whatever it takes to have the marriage you've always hoped and dreamed of? And I think it was almost like shackles falling off my eyes, you know, just the pride that had been built up over the years of our marriage fell off. I remember going home, just being broken. I went to Ashley and I and I told her what happened. And I said, Hey, I'm willing if you are. And really that was kind of our turning point early on in our marriage that really helped us get over the pride and helped us, helped us to really focus in on communication and uh breaking down those walls.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Yeah, his humility that night saved our marriage. If I if I would say our number one game plan is to walk in humility, the goal is to walk into humility always. Um, our pastor, Pastor Joel said one time, he said humility is the first step to healing in any relationship. And I believe that's a hundred percent true. So I would say our first step in our game is too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Humility is the first step to healing in any relationship. Well, and I believe that is a hundred percent true. It saved our marriage because he showed me humility. I in return showed humility back. And I was like, I don't know how this is gonna work. I don't know how we're gonna get ourselves out of this mess. But we have to start declaring out of our mouth that God is gonna save our marriage, and we've got to start doing whatever it takes to have the marriage we've always hoped and dreamed of. So we we didn't have a lot of faith, but we had a little bit of mustard seed faith, and we just began to declare. We not only declared, but here's some other things that we added to our marriage game plan. We started reading books like yours, right? Because you need the knowledge, the wisdom, and the understanding if you're gonna build a house, right? Like it says in Proverbs. So we we needed that. We found mentors at church. This one couple, I don't even think they knew they were our mentors. We just kept asking them out for lunch and asking them so many questions because we were so hungry to learn and grow and get out of the mess we were in. We knew at that point with God, all things are possible. And here we are today. Like we just wanted a great marriage. We wanted to be healed, and here we are today. You know, that happened, we're 29, so that was five, 24 years ago. We just wanted a, you know, a healthy marriage. Here we are today, leading people, helping people. God has so much bigger plans for your life than you could ever imagine if you just submit to him, get on a game plan, and start working things out together.

Building A Game Plan: Tools And Mentors

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Amen, Ashley. That is amazing. And and the tip that I'm hearing is is a big part of your game plan is being intentional in your marriage, like learning how to be married. You don't know how to be married, and you you need to always be intentional about finding out about your spouse, learning how to make your marriage work.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Yeah, I'm I'm also hearing that you guys did somewhat the opposite of what maybe normal people would do, right? Normal people would try to fight to be heard or to be you know, get my point across, but you both went very low, right? The pr the Bible talks about pride. Pride comes before destruction, right? And instead of destroying the marriage that God had for you guys, you guys went humble to listen to his way. And we know you're not perfect, right? Because you know, I talk to Clayton quite a lot, so I know he's not perfect. But what I'm getting is, especially for our listeners, is maybe a game plan for you is to figure out where you might be going a little prideful and go the opposite way and say, how can I come in humble this time? How can I be a better listener? How can I be a better one who tries to hear the heart of my spouse as opposed to just having my needs uh heard all the time? And so here's another one. What what guiding principles, because we know you guys are principally based, like what guiding principles or plays, because it is the marriage playbook, have you uh have become non-negotiables in your marriage?

Non-Negotiables: Team Mindset And Respect

SPEAKER_04 10:23

I think one thing for us, you know, I think, you know, to your point, I think it's it we have learned how important it is to have, you know, the principle of a plan before we go into battle, right? Or before we before we before we come to that place to where we're kind of at odds with each other, that we have this understanding that, you know what, we're a team, uh, we're gonna walk through this together. So before we ever enter into any kind of an arena, right, we're not gonna fight against each other, we're gonna fight with each other. And I think that took us a long time to come to that realization that that if she loses, I lose. And it, but if she wins, I win. So really coming from that humble state of saying, you know what, one principle is going to be we're going to have a plan of action, a plan of attack before we ever get to that valley of hopelessness ever again, you know, because for us in the beginning, that valley, it took five years to get down to the bottom. Well, it also took a number of years and a number of steps to get out. But if we would not have had a principle in place that we were gonna do this together, I don't know if we would have come out of that to where we are now. And I think we we keep that in front of us, realizing that we've got to have that in place before we do anything else. We've got to be on the same page to know what plays we're gonna call. You know, when when it's crunch time, when you're at the two-minute warning, you know, and you've got to make some plays, you've got to have already recited and practiced some things before you ever get into that. And I think that's helped us quite a bit.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah, I would also say too that once we learned what each other's number one needs were, we had to make those a focus of our day every day. You know, we start at zero every day. So Clayton, you know, and most men, their number one need is honor and respect. And so I needed to make sure I wasn't showing him that. We ended up in this cycle of, you know, I was upset. Like he would come home and you, you know, he would used to, he would talk to me all the time. And now it was more about I'm the provider, not the pursuer. And and I would be upset because he wouldn't talk to me. So I was rude to him. So, you know, because that of that, he would spend less time with me. Well, my number one need is security. And so I felt so insecure. And so once we learn, like I've got to show him honor and respect every single day. And I and I need honor and respect too. But for him, that means everything. You know, somebody at work could say something rude to him, he can get over it. But if I say something rude or try to cut him down, it's gonna take him a lot longer to recover from that because I'm his closest companion. And for me, you know, security, I told him one time, I said, security is like the air that I breathe. Like I need to know that everything's okay. I need to know what you're thinking about. I need to have conversations with you. That is important to me. It's not necessarily important to him. But he's he's okay with just a fine okay sometimes. And I need more details. And so he that's gotta be at the forefront of his mind. Even though God didn't create him that way, he's gotta think about the way I was created and vice versa.

SPEAKER_04 13:25

Sure. I think another principle has been transparency and vulnerability between the two, because like she said, she needs details. She needs to know. I love that she said, she needs to know what I'm thinking. Well, the early days of Clayton thought she does not want to know what I'm thinking, you know, because I was dealing with a lot of different hurts from the past and some trauma and some different things. So I think over the years we realized how important vulnerability is. And I think whenever she told me that, that that security was like the air that she breathed, I felt like, okay, well, one thing that I can help with that is let her know what I'm thinking, let her know what my thoughts are, what I'm struggling with, what I'm going through, you know, the things that kind of I used to keep hidden, now I've kind of brought into this safe place. And she's helped, actually, she's helped heal me from a lot of those things. And so I think having that principle of vulnerability and transparency, she knows all my passwords, she has access to my phone, my computer at all times. She can, she can ask me anything. As soon as my phone dings, she can ask, who's that texting? I and I'll tell her. You know, so having that, you know, that communication, but that vulnerability has been a game changer for us.

Vulnerability, Transparency, And Safety

SPEAKER_00 14:33

And that and that is so good that you brought that up because I do think a lot of couples struggle with that area of vulnerability and having tough conversations with their spouse. But it sounds like the the more you tackled those tough conversations, it sounds like it brought a deeper level of intimacy, respect, and security and safety in your relationship. And it made you both feel closer at the end of it all. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

I love it when you said that we have to start at zero every day. Right. You didn't say, Well, I gave you respect yesterday, you know, or last week. You said, no, no, every day we start off with the same things, right? And and and it reminded me of of that scripture in Ecclesiastes that says that two are better than one, right? And and and two can stand back to back and conquer and fight together, not each other, but they will fight against the foes that are trying to come and attack our marriage. This is this is a very rich discussion. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Very rich discussion. And I know a lot of our listeners out there may be feeling overwhelmed in their marriage. Maybe they're in a season where they are starting to be hopeless about are they gonna ever make it work? Or maybe this is not the right person that I'm marrying. How did you all, when you were feeling overwhelmed in your marriage, how did you pause, regroup, and find your rhythm again?

SPEAKER_04 16:02

I think for us, we we realize the importance of our daily time with God. Because if this relationship, if my relationship with God is in tune and I'm I'm humble with him and I come to him daily and I get what I need and I make sure that this is right, it makes this relationship so much easier that we can work through and walk through anything. And I I think um a lot of it has been over the years realizing that you know your your emotional life will dictate, what is it that Craig always says?

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Your devotional life.

Resetting During Overwhelm: Devotions First

SPEAKER_04 16:34

Your devotional life will dictate your emotional life. So our devotional every day, our devotions that we go through every day, you know, we're on right now, I think we're on year three of reading through the Bible together. Now, she reads it in her when she gets up, and I read it when I get up, and then we talk about it throughout the day or we talk about, hey, what did you see? What was your God shot today, whenever you were reading through your scriptures? You know, but just having that devotional time where we get centered on, okay, God, what do you need from me today? What can I bring you today? What do I need to lay down to you today? What do I need to stop caring today? And then how do how can I pray over her? How can I be the best husband I can be for her, the best, you know, the best helpmate for her? I think when we realize that this relationship was the most important, and when this is okay, this seems to thrive, you know, our relationship together. And and that's even times when we get out of sync with each other, you know. If we're out of sync, a lot of times it starts with this relationship with God. If my relationship with God isn't where it should be or where it needs to be, I feel it a lot more in our relationship together.

Scripture, Renewal Of Mind, And Hope

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah, I think, you know, in the Bible tells us to renew our mind, you know, that's our responsibility. It's not up to the Holy Spirit to renew our mind. It's our responsibility. And so one thing that we teach in our classes is, you know, what you believe affects how you feel and it affects how you behave. So when you start acting out or are you, you know, being irrational or you're upset or you're frustrated with your spouse or things seem hopeless, okay. Well, back up, pass the feelings to what are you believing? What are you believing about your spouse? Is it the truth or is it a lie the enemies put in your head? What, what, what can you counteract against that belief in what God's word says against that? Start there, start claiming scriptures over your mind and your thoughts. And like Clayton said, well, us reading the Bible, uh, that has been like another chapter to our marriage game plan. Reading the Bible together has been a just a breath of fresh air to our marriage the last three years. I mean, it is just like taking it to another level. Like we're learning things about God's word and just more about the history of that time that has just it shows us who God is. We're looking for God in the scriptures, not ourselves. And we're seeing that He loves people when we read through Deuteronomy is a book that just made brings me to tears because it's Moses' last words. It's like P, you think of people about people that have passed away and you always remember their words that they spoke to you. They like Miss Doty at our church, she just passed away. So I start thinking about her. She was a prayer warrior. She believed in healing. And I could see it in our church, like those Sunday afterwards. People were just like, their level of believing God was higher because of what she meant. Moses, in his last words, he's telling, you know, the this group, this new group of Israelites that are going into the promised land. He's reminding them of these different things. But he also says, Do you know that God loves you just because? It's not because you're a great nation. It's not because you're mighty warriors, because you're not. Right. He loves you just because. And I've just been sitting on that from reading through that, like, God loves me just because I'm a mess. I'm a mess. Like, I have so many things I need to be forgiven of. We all do. But he loves me just because. And that has helped my mind get right, right? Because I can spiral into different things like look what he did, and why did he do? God, you love me just because. You've forgiven me for so many things. Why can't I forgive him too? I love that.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

And so that is really helpful. I love it. And and that, you know, I think that's why God has to be at the center of our relationship. It and we're not trying to do this all in our own strength. Like I'm hearing you say a part of your game plan is that you're relying on God to transform you on the inside out to make you more of his character and nature within you, which then helps you be a better for your spouse. I think that's good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

Well, what I'm hearing from that is sometimes we are blaming our spouse and we we take our spouse to the Lord, fix them, fix them. And it sounds like what you're saying is from your Bible time, you got how you could be fixed or you could be, you know, made more into God's image. And that's again, it's just a fresh way to look at scripture. And there's probably some of our listeners that you've probably given up on the Bible, you've probably given up maybe going to church, maybe a part of that game plan is to get back in there, right? Get back in that huddle, get back in there with your teammates, uh, maybe it's some of your small group leaders, and just, hey man, what are we what are we needing to read? And how can we do these meditations or these devotions together? Let's hit a couple more times going by real quick.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

So we know that in our world today, you know, couples are faced with so many challenges and so many things that's out of their control, right? And so couples may be experiencing loss in their life, a loss of a loved one, loss of a job, loss of, you know, of just the easy life of enjoying each other, things of getting hard. Can you share a season that felt like a loss and what helped you recover and grow from it?

Weathering Loss And Grief Together

SPEAKER_04 21:53

Well, the first the first thing that comes to my mind is when I lost my mom. Uh, it's been several years ago, and I could not have gone through that without Ashley, you know, and I can't imagine going through it without her. And I think that's it's it's times like that that you don't even recognize the grace that's on you to go through hard seasons like that. I can't imagine going through a hard season like that without your spouse. I can't imagine going through something like that without her. You know, so so when you go through a hard season, and that's the thing, everybody's gonna go through hard seasons, but especially when you're dealing with grief, grief is like the waves in the sea. They they're constant. Some waves are gonna knock you over and drive you to the ground. Some waves you can take care of, you know. But I think knowing that you're anchored not only with God, but you're anchored with your spouse to go through those. I still remember I was a son, but I was also a pastor. And so I was grieving as a son, and I felt like I was taking on the mantle of helping a family grieve as a pastor. And so I felt like I had this dual weight that I couldn't really fully grieve as a son because I was trying to help my family walk through the loss of our mom. And uh, I remember the second day, and I remember sitting down with my my siblings and my dad, and and I said, Listen, tomorrow, whenever we go meet the pastor, he's gonna want to know this, he's gonna want to know this, you know, what was mom's expectations? Da-da-da. You know, and I just kind of got into that mode and it caught up with me probably about three months later, to where because she loves me and cares for me, she met me with grace that I didn't deserve. And she said, Hey, it seems like you're still dealing, you know, that you haven't really had a chance to deal with the grief of your mom's passing. You know, maybe it might be good for you to get some counseling and to walk through this. She goes, I'll walk through it with you, but but maybe getting some counseling to help with that. And just her courage to speak up and to share that with me. And because of where we were in that moment of going through a hard time, that really to me, it gave me the courage to to pick up the phone and call a counselor and go through some counseling to really help me find the words that I needed, find the time that I needed to be able to grieve the way I needed to. And that wouldn't have happened if it would have happened during those first five years of hopelessness. Yeah. Because we were together.

Creating A Garden: Safe Conversations

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah. I think communication is key. Have communicate with one another when you're in a great season to prepare you for the winter season. You know, you know, if you're in that it was the summer season that's so wonderful, like have those conversations to prepare you for that winter season. Because if if we had not been in a good place, he could have been highly offended that I and I was, and I I'm gonna be honest, I was a little scared to come to him and say, you know, counseling might be a good option because I was afraid that I was gonna hurt his feelings as if I was saying, you can't do this, like you're not man enough to do this. And that's not, that was not my heart or my intention at all. But I was so scared that he was gonna feel that way. And so, I mean, I prayed a lot and he was so gracious to accept what I said, but I could see how he might not have and been offended by it if we hadn't created what we call this garden, the safe space in your marriage where you can truly be naked and unashamed, like it talks about in Genesis 2 before the fall happened. You know, God was setting everything up for us to live, you know, where heaven and earth were together in this beautiful oasis. That's where we're meant to be. So we've had this kind of God moment of we need to create a garden in our marriage, where we have, it's not gonna be perfect because we live in the world of sin, but at least we can create something where heaven and earth can come together, where the fruit of the spirit come out of it, right? When heaven and earth come together, where the fruit of the spirit can come out and we can truly be naked and unashamed with one another. And that's some language we've recently, because reading through the Bible, we've recently kind of taken on. And I could see how we've kind of had brought that interim marriage without knowing it, but now we have this language where we'll say to one another, hey, is this a good time to bring something to the garden? You know, is this, you know, and maybe it's not a good time, but but he knows like, oh, okay, she's bringing something that's really hard and she needs to talk to me and she loves me, but she needs to talk about this right here, so let's talk about it. So that's helped us.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

No, that's that's so awesome. So uh there have been times where where Tondra and I over the years, we would be missing each other in communication or or you know, I might say one thing and she would hear it a different way, and I would plead with her, like believe the best in me, meaning that I would never say that to you, right? Or I would try to guard your heart, meaning I would try to cover her heart. But sometimes I think in couples' relationship, we just, you know, if we're not believing the best, not to say Tondra was like that all the time, but couples in general, if you're not believing the best, then everything is gonna hurt. Everything's gonna get on your nerves. And so, so listen, Clayton and Ashley, I know you guys are such a power couple, and I know you have many strengths together, but I bet you there are a few differences that, in my opinion, probably you're like pulling the rest of your hair out, Clayton, right? Like, what what are some of your differences? How are you differences, but how do you honor each other in your differences?

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Are you want us uh wanting us to tell the tale story? Is that where this is lean? Oh, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_03 27:19

If you want to tell the tale story, I want to. That's for another podcast.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

That's for another podcast. I mean, our listeners out there.

SPEAKER_04 27:26

That's for another podcast. No, I I think um one thing that Ashley and I are very passionate about is talking about strengths and the strengths that God's given you as an individual. And I I can I can recognize now how much Ashley has has a strength of just ideation. She's always coming up with ideas. I called her the other day and said, Hey, I need an idea for this, that, and the other. And she gave me like 15 different ideas. You know, uh, she's such a strategic thinker and and always thinks through things and thinks through things so so well. And I think early on in our marriage, I I used to not value that. Um, it used to get on my nerves. Used to, I used to feel like, well, why is she asking so many questions? And why is it taking her so long to make a decision? And, you know, um, I think now I see that as such a strength that I don't have. But because we're on the same team, I can now come to her and exercise that strength in her for our benefit, even though I don't have that strength and I'm completely okay with not having that strength, but that's a gift that God's given her and a strength that God's given her. So I get the benefits from it. You know, and and as a as a couple, we get those benefits. And I think I've just in the last few years been able to recognize that and really and really be appreciative of that.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Yeah, I think, you know, just to bring it down to basics, people are usually either thinkers, doers, or feelers. I'm a thinker, he's a doer. And so when I'm thinking, I can think really quickly, like we should do this and that, and then I I can bounce things around in my head and move. He cannot think that quickly. And sometimes it it r that's a big difference we have. And sometimes it really frustrates me that he can't think as fast as me. Like, keep up, you know? And I've had to really learn to be patient with that and be kind in my words because God didn't create a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

You know how much you're helping us out, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:16

Like, we're the opposite in that.

SPEAKER_04 29:18

So all the men that are listening to this podcast are like, that's so true.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

That's so right.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Why and he's a doer, so he can do things quickly. Like we were at the church a few months ago, and he we were in charge of we were having a big staff meeting. We have a huge staff, and we needed to put some Tensor Barrier out and do some things for things. So Clayton's in charge. He's like, go do this, da-da-da-da, and da-da-da. And I'm like, wait a second, what did you say? In which order? And he and he was just like, forget it. And he just went and did it. And I was like, wait, hold on, you know, and he later apologized. He was like, I'm sorry, you know, I can just do things so much faster than you can because I need to think things through. He can just go and do. Like anybody that needs help at the church, they're calling Clayton because he will get it done and he'll get it done quick. Where me, I'm like, can I think about that for a few minutes before I get there? But he has been so patient with me in that. Now, sometimes we're not always perfect. Sometimes I'm like, keep up with my thinking, and he's like, keep up with my doing. But we've had to learn that that's a difference, that's how God created us, and we need to have patience and love for each other and empathy for each other in that area.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Yeah, definitely. So it sounds like a big part of it is figuring out how to allow your differences to influence you and make you better as a couple and more well-rounded. And I and I love that. And I think that is going to resonate with so many of our listeners because God has a unique sense of humor of bringing differences together and then say, now become one.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

Yeah. Tell them about the fill in the gaps, though, right? Like what Rocky said.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yeah, well, one of my favorite things went uh with Rocky when he asked Adrian to marry him. He says, You know, it's like this, Adrian. Excuse my, I'm gonna try to sound like him. You know, it's like this, Adrian. I got gaps, you got gaps. Togethers, we got snow gaps. So you're covering each other's gaps. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

That's really good.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah. So do you do you feel like we have time for one more, or do we need to?

SPEAKER_02 31:22

I mean, I could listen to these guys all the time. I can listen to them all day. Yeah, let's get one more.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Let's get one more and then okay. So you've mentioned something throughout this conversation uh about having mentors, yeah, a couple not even knowing that they were your mentors uh officially. So for you, like who is cheering you on, like in your community and your friends and family, and how has that support or lack of impacted your relationship?

SPEAKER_04 31:57

I think we learned early on, I think we stumbled upon it, the importance of mentors. You know, that first couple, I can call them by name. Uh again, I don't think they realize how much they saved us early on. But even now, we've got couples that have been married. Uh, we're at year 29. We've got a couple in our life that's at year 35 or 36. You know, they've raised their kids, they're empty nesters, we're not quite there yet, but uh but they're they're ahead of us. And so we've been able to kind of walk along their side and kind of see how they handle issues and how they handle challenges with parenting and parenting adults. Parenting adult kids. That's a completely that's another podcast.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

It needs to be a book written, the marriage game plan parenting adults edition.

SPEAKER_04 32:41

But then we we've got a couple that sees it first. Yeah, we've got another couple that they're over the 40, 40 year mark, you know, and so just having those different couples, and and again, they may not know that there are we consider them our mentors, but that's that's how we view them. And so we make sure to spend time and it and it just gives us balance. It helps us understand because what we tell couples is that, you know, go find a mentor and don't ask them about their successes, ask them all about their challenges and their problems because you get to get all the wisdom without going through any of the pain. Wow. And so I think that's what we've we've really been able to glean the wisdom, knowledge, and understanding without having to go back through any pain or through through any more pain that that's not needed. And I think that's been tremendous for us and really, really allowed us to take steps forward faster than we ever thought possible.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

And we just have such great friends within our marriage ministry, too. I mean, we we're not the ones teaching every week. We have a whole group of couples at our church that teach every week and we learn so much from them. We tell them all the time, we're like, I know we we have to be here on Sunday, but we want to be here in this class on Sunday because we learn so much from you guys. I mean, we have couples that have been there for years and years and years, strong marriages, but I would say, you know, find mentors, but get in a church that has a marriage group that you're learning from and growing from, and and get books like the marriage game plan that you can do a study with at your church. Do things like that because, you know, we were meant to be a part of a community. You know, God put himself in the Trinity, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. He's in an eternal community, right? Relationships are important to him. That's why he never gave up on us, right? Throughout the history of the Bible and even to today, because he loves relationships. He wants us in relationships.

Don't Isolate In Marriage

SPEAKER_04 34:35

I'll say one last thing for for the listeners that might be tuned in that think that you're the only one going through a challenge in your marriage. You're not. I think that's a part of the enemy's plan is to isolate you. And that's what it was for us. He tried to isolate us. And we ask we just assumed that we were the only ones that couldn't figure out this marriage thing. But once we started getting around other couples, we realized that everybody deals with this. Everybody goes through this. So if you don't have a marriage ministry at your local church, you can obviously you find great podcasts like this, you find great books, you know, invest in your marriage. You know, I I think a lot of times we forget how much we invest into our lives for our jobs. We go to trainings, we go to conferences, we go to retreats, we figure out, you know, what's it gonna take to, you know, take that next step up on the ladder. Or, you know, if if you're a pro athlete or whatever, you know, what can I do to get that edge? Same way with your marriage. You know, you're you're you've got to be constantly looking for that next book, that next thing. The thing that I really appreciate about you guys and about the marriage game plan is at the end of every chapter, you've got that list of questions. You know, you can go through those questions with each other. You that's a great time where you can show vulnerability with one another. You can have those conversations. To me, that's really what sets couples that are working on their marriage apart. And that obviously opens the door for God to step in to lead you through the season that you're in. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Such great advice.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Because, and this is what you all lived. I I remember having a conversation with you about how you were uh didn't want to tell people you were struggling because they would think badly of you, right? And I love your wisdom here for your game plan when you say we're not supposed to do marriage in isolation, right? And a lot of times couples feel like they're the only ones, but the only way you can realize you're not the only one is is opening your relationship up to someone else to help you grow. We've experienced that once we started opening our you've experienced, and now we've got 29 and 30 years of marriage here because we didn't try to do marriage in isolation. We opened our marriage up, we got help, we let people know the ugly parts, and that's how we grew and healed from the things that were keeping us from being successful.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah, such a such a great conversation. Hey Clayton and Ashley, how can people find you guys and learn more about your ministry?

SPEAKER_04 36:58

You can follow us online. We are you the easiest way to do is Clayton and Ashley on Instagram. Uh, that's our joint account that we that we do together, and uh it's all about marriage and strengths and different ways that we can uh that we can help couples, and that's really what we feel like we're called to do.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

That's it. That's it. Listen, guys, they've got an incredible book called Hope for Your Marriage. What they don't know is that Hope for Your Marriage gave us the confidence to write the marriage game plan. So go out and grab both of those books, Hope for Your Marriage by Clayton and Ashley Hurst, and also the marriage game plan by yours truly. Just in our last few moments together, Clayton, you gave some great advice. Ashley, I'm gonna ask that you would put the icing on the cake and just pray for our couples. Pray whatever God lays on your heart.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Absolutely. Lord, we just come before you now and we just say, um, we are so grateful. We're grateful. Lord, I I I know it helps me just to be grateful for the simple thing. So God, I thank you that right now we all have air to breathe. Lord, we have families, we have homes, we have someone beside us that's walking through life with us. So God, we just first of all, we thank you for the sun that rises in the morning. Sometimes when we get our minds right on just being grateful, it opens our hearts up for forgiveness, for honesty, for vulnerability. So God, I just want to start with a posture of gratefulness. And God, I just pray for any couple out there right now that is just in a place where they just feel confused or alone or hurt. And I just pray, God, that you will just give them wisdom. I pray for your peace that passes all understanding, will guard their heart and their minds. And God, I just pray, Proverbs three, over them, that they will trust in you with all their heart. They won't lean on their own understandings, but in all their ways, in everything they do, they will acknowledge you. And your word says that you will direct their path, Lord. It goes on to say that, Lord, that you will also bring healing to our body and our bones. So, God, I just pray healing over these couples. God, I pray that you'll bring godly people into their lives that will, that will bring them wisdom and sharpen them like iron. God, I pray if they're looking for a church, God, that they will find the perfect church that will bring life into those dry bones of their marriage. God, I pray that um they'll get the resources and tools they need to build a house on wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. We love you. We praise you, we give you all the glory for everything that you've done and for who you are in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 39:19

Amen. Amen. And I can hear that song going off saying, whoo, there it is. That's awesome. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Thank you so much for being on our podcast today. And I'm sure that our listeners, they're going to go back time and time again and replay this so they can get the wisdom and the nuggets that you guys offer today. Thanks so much for being with us.

SPEAKER_04 39:40

Thank you guys. It was an honor.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Honor. We love you guys so much.